Most people who have heard of Jarboe know her as the hypnotically captivating side kick to Michael Gira, of the Swans and World of Skin. Indeed, for many years she seemed content to act as such. Now she is finally truly on her own, musically and spiritually. With the release of her fifth solo album, Anhedoniac, Jarboe is making a statement about the finality of her severance with both Swans, and Gira himself. With her upcoming sixth album, she intends to make a statement about her own self-empowerment and self-healing. To this end, she is also launching her own web site, apart from the Swans web site, where she can better imprint her own personal style and tastes. Jarboe is staying busy, constantly making new contacts in the music and art world, and filling up what would seem to be a hectic schedule planner of exciting events for the next year. Jarboe has come into her own. She has the power and she’s learning how to use it. Following is a transcription of an enlightening interview that my co-host, DJ Justin Jay, and I conducted with her live on the air via telephone, for our radio show the “all-purpose nuclear bedtime story,” on KUCI 88.9 fm, in Irvine, California.
Justin: How long ago did Anhedoniac actually come out?
Jarboe: Well it was supposed to come out on the 23rd of May, but it just came out in August because I had a lot of trouble getting it printed — getting the CD booklet printed, because there are some rather graphic photographs. I went to several different printers after they started the work. It wasn’t the people that I talked with at the company that had a problem with it, it was the people that were actually going to be working with it; binding it or actually working with the images. The first couple of people were Christians, quote unquote, and they took offense and so just pressured the printing company to have us take the job elsewhere. And then the last problem I had; the woman was a feminist, and she thought the images were degrading to women because I am shown in a state of being scarred and mutilated. She thought I was advocating battered women — which is ridiculous because I am one tough cookie and not prone to that kind of thing (chuckles). So it finally came out in August, much to my relief! I had to e-mail all these people that had pre-ordered it and explain the updates. It was a pretty interesting experience. Only recently with this beating that happened, of the man that was gay; that’s kind of an example of the kind of thing rearing its head. I live in a vacuum. I forget that there are reactionary people out there that are rather dangerous, and that they want things to be their way or they become very threatened. So, the artwork with this project, and the lyrics too; they found offense to printing those.
Justin: Do you have much trouble with that sort of thing in Atlanta? Or do you feel that it’s a pretty progressive place?
Jarboe: Well, yeah, I thought it was. I think that now, if I were to print in Atlanta again, I would have to go to a place that deals with pornographic kinds of materials.
Anji: You’ll still be mild compared to that.
Jarboe: I just went with printers that were recommended as being really good companies. Obviously I was looking for a quote that would be affordable, because I paid for this whole project –there’s no label involved here– so money was a consideration.
Anji: That’s a really big thing to take on.
Jarboe: Yeah, but I had to. In a way this is like an intimate gift for the fans that know the work. I mean, you have to come to our web site to know about this. It’s very, very intimate. I wanted it that way because the end of Swans and my relationship with Michael Gira was such a monumental thing in my life, I mean, it devastated me — and that’s why this project is dedicated to all the former members of Swans and to Michael. I really wanted to put forth a very personal effort; I wasn’t trying to win new fans or crack the Top 40 (all laugh), I wanted to just do something personal for people that know me already and care about me already. That’s what I set out to do.
Anji: There’s a lot of issues we could tackle from that one answer to one question, but let’s back up a bit. So, the album itself, Anhedoniac; is that a direct statement on your breakup with Swans and Michael Gira?
Jarboe: Yes, it definitely is. I mean, the state of anhedonia is the inability to experience pleasure, and, I mean, nobody needs to have that explained that was on any of the tours. It has to do with a kind of attitude, a state of mind that seemed to surround the project. It was a very, very serious project, and that’s fine, but it was a very draining experience. (Sighs) As an artist in my own right, it was very much about discipline because working for him, you had to submerge a lot of your own identity, and still try to have integrity, but see it though his vision. I liked the challenge of that. My friends were amazed at what I did in ’84 when I had a whole life and was a performance artist down here. I really felt so much that the work they were doing was important in New York at the time, you know, Sonic Youth and Swans and all that was happening at the Lower East Side, and I really wanted to be a part of that. So I went up there and really forgot who I was as an artist, for a good year. I was a gopher. I did press and had press kits made. I was a roadie on the first tour, hauling equipment around, ’cause I just wanted to prove who I was and become a part of the project. Then, I don’t know, for another year and a half to two years I didn’t even sing — and I’m a trained vocalist.
Anji: That’s a real waste
Jarboe: I think when I finally sang “Blackmail,” Al Kizys, who was the bass player at the time, said, “Boy, you’re wasting your time standing behind the keyboards! You need to be singing.” So we did the Skin project as an outlet for me to sing. Then I just started singing more in Swans. But, it was very much an emotional roller coaster ride. I consider Anhedoniac as the disease album, the disease CD, the illness CD. The one that I’m writing now, that I’m going to record in two weeks in Israel, is the healing process. So, the images are going to revolve around the hospital, intensive care unit and drill bits — because I’ve read about trephination, and I’m thinking of getting that done. This is the disease album and the other will be the recovery album.
Anji: Will it be performance based, or vocally based?
Jarboe: Well, I’m working with a man who is an orthodox Jew and plays all these middle eastern percussion instruments. The whole idea is going to be around healing and allowing joy; allowing yourself to have joy, instead of feeling like joy is something that you do not deserve or can not feel — which is the mind set that I got into for so many years.
Anji: I can certainly see that.
Justin: How did you hook up with the person that you’ll be working with?
Jarboe: He started writing in 1992. He followed us around Europe on different tours, so I guess I you’d say he’s a fan, but he’s a producer and a musician. He owns his own studio. He does his own project as well as produces a lot of artists in Israel. He just wrote me in, I guess it was February or March, and said, “Look, I want to produce you. I want you to come here. My studio is at your disposal.” So I just said, “Yeah.” (Laughs) I can not say no! It’s an offer I cant refuse.
Anji: You’re going to Tel Aviv, you said? It should be nice.
Jarboe: Yeah. It should be great. I’m going to be alone. I’m going into a strange situation; I’ve never been to the Middle East. I’m very excited about it. I’ve traveled a lot. Every tour that I’ve done has been all over the world. I think I will be ready for the security check. When we used to go to Berlin, we had to pass though East Berlin, and I remember those security checks; apparently this is even worse. You check in, like, 4 hours early ’cause security is so intensive.
Anji: That’s intense. I guess you don’t want to have any metal on you whatsoever!
Jarboe: (Laughs) Yeah, I was thinking, “Should I bring my Swiss Army knife, No, I guess not.” (Laughs)
Justin: How long will you be in Tel Aviv?
Jarboe: I’ll be there six weeks. I think we’ll get it done then, just working a lot. I think it’s going to be good. For this project, I’m probably going to do it Internet again, but I will also try to get some distribution — selective distribution — because I still want to maintain the whole idea of the artist controlling it, not a record label. This has been very satisfying for me, knowing everyone who buys it; where they live; a lot of them write me notes.
Anji: It’s nice to get some feedback from your listeners.
Jarboe: Yeah. See, I believe in the Internet. I believe in the future the whole ideal of a record label is going to be abolished. I mean, you don’t even need them. What do they do? They send it to radio stations, put it in stores, supposedly get you press, but with the ideal of the Internet, you really don’t need that. People can come directly to you. I just love my computer, and I love the Internet. I spend a lot of time on it. The networking possibilities are amazing! I found all these collaborators that I’m going to be working with. I was just bold enough to send them e-mail, and then, much to my delight, they were like, “Yeah, we want to work with you. Great!“
Anji: Who are some of these collaborators?
Jarboe: The first of them is Lustmord. He’s doing dub remixes. Another is David Litton, who’s most noticeably done percussion live with Diamanda Galas. He’s going to do drum ‘n’ bass remixes for me.
Anji: Are these from the Anhedoniac album’s material?
Jarboe: Well, yeah, he’s doing the same one as Panasonic (ed. note: now known as Pan Sonic) worked on, “The Circles in Red Dirt,” but he’s also doing some newer stuff. Then there’s this guy, Thread, who has done Coil mixes, and he’s doing some new songs that I just recorded. You know, there’s a lot of people that I’m working with! There’s this guy, Bildeaux, who’s from a group called Necrofix, from Texas; they do kind of industrial music, similar to Nine Inch Nails stuff. So, all these were born through Internet contacts.
Justin: Say, what is the Internet address, by the way?
Jarboe: The web site right now is swans.pair.com, but in ’99, with the new album, I’m going to launch my own site. [upate: thelivingjarboe.com] I’m very excited about that. It’s going to be linked to the Swans site, but my site is going to be a living site. I’m going to have interviews with artists that I think are interesting, I’m going to have journal entries; it’s going to be a constantly updated, changing kind of site. I want to keep it more like a news thing.
Anji: Will you be doing this yourself, or do you have someone to do it for you?
Jarboe: I know a number of people who are web designers, so I’m going to have different input. One of them is Phil Puleo, who traveled with us, who’s Cop Shoot Cop — he was on drums on the last tour. And the man who did the Anhedoniac site, who works under the name of Tank, he’s going to be working on it. The difference between this and the Swans site is that the whole idea was that I’m in touch with the fans, so why not have a site that’s just about, “Hey, I’m here and I’m accessible; I’m available.”
Anji: I’m sure a lot of people don’t expect that.
Jarboe: No, and it’s kind of a surprise. When I first set out with the Anhedoniac project and said that I was going to hand sign, number, assemble, package and mail out every single one, people were kinda like, “Okaaaaayyy…” But why not? You know, it’s all part of that process for me. I got an angry letter from a man that was very offended by the shot across the dedication page, with the chastity belt with hooks and my vagina very explicitly jutting out. He was very offended, so he was going to burn all his Swans and Jarboe CDs.
Justin: Was he a fan of yours?
Jarboe: He started out as one. And so, instead of like, shooting him the bird, or whatever, I just shot back at him, “Why do you feel that way? Lets talk about this.” In the end, he went and got another one. He bought a new copy. So, I totally turned him around.
Anji: So he had actually destroyed the first copy he had?
Jarboe: Yeah!
Anji: Wow! What a strange, neurotic reaction!
Jarboe: This is one of the problems I’ve had with sending it to the radio stations, or even the magazines I like, to review it: unless you’re ready for it, which you have to say you are to order it — you have to sign that you’re going to get something hard core. But, to just cold open that… (Laughs) If you were to just receive it and cold open it, I could see how it might not be an experience you wanted. (Laughs)
Anji: With all the build-up, I thought it was going to be even worse! I was like, “Uh-oh, what is this going to be?!” But when I actually saw it, I was like, “Well, you know, it’s…”
Jarboe: If you’ve seen Hustler…
Anji: But it’s not even along those lines. It has nothing to do with sex, it’s more like the lack of sex.
Jarboe: Oh yeah. Well, I saw Kimbre last week, with the Voluptuous Horror of Karen Black. You see those scars and cuts; of course that’s all makeup, and Kimbre is the one who applied all that. She did all the makeup. She’s an expert.
Anji: It does look shockingly real. And then your face; you come off as such a demoness!
Jarboe: The funny part of the shoot was that Richard Kern was on his back, shooting up, and he kept trying to keep part of me open and not close up. Finally he asked someone for a pencil, he turned it around, and without even warning me, he just went — Whoop! and stuck it up between me, then took the picture. (Laughs uproariously)
Anji: Where is the set that you’re posing in, with the little barred window?
Jarboe: It’s just in Richard Kern’s apartment, in New York City.
Anji: I wanted to ask you about the chastity belt you’re wearing; it’s really a piece of art. I was wondering who created it.
Jarboe: It was done by an artist in Atlanta; her name of Melanie Spinks and she works in old antique worn leather and rusty metal. She does some really interesting work. We had a show together last summer where it was my poetry juxtaposed with her sculpture. I had this idea about anhedonia — the inability to experience pleasure — what better way to express to express that than with a chastity belt! (Laughs) So, I asked her if she would make it. It is a work of art. And we have it available for sale on the site. There’s definitely somebody out there who… I mean, there’s a chastity belt site on the net and I have it advertised on there, too, because I know somebody that’s into fetish items would love to have this thing. It’s hanging up right now, here in my office. It’s quite beautiful. It’s very interesting, strapping yourself into that. And then the hooks kinda go with the logo J (on the cover of Anhedoniac.)
Anji: Backtracking a bit, it must have been very disappointing finding yourself being censored by someone claiming to be a feminist.
Jarboe: Yeah, you know, it’s just this whole politically correct mindset. I don’t really view things that way, I’m kinda beyond that. I mean, my attitude is that I strapped myself into this device, so it’s more like, “You want some of me, come and get it!” You know? “I’ll rip you apart!” It’s that kind of a thing. It’s very much coming from a place of strength, not from a victim. And that was the confusion over that. I ended up using a close friend to do the binding; learning that process and doing it for the first time, because they refused to do it. But the bottom line is that we got it done. We overcame our obstacles. I think it was interesting to realize what kind of closed minds there are out there, when you least expect it. The whole Christian thing I was kind of ready for, especially with the lyrics. The last song… there are things that are blessed and anointed that are rather putrid. (evil laugh) So I wasn’t surprised, but the feminist thing kinda surprised me. I’m doing an interview this January with Lydia Lunch, she’s going to be interviewing me about this album and my career. Richard is supposedly going to photograph it, if he’s in town. We’re going to go to New York. The kinds of things we’re going to talk about are, like, the whole Post-Feminist… Women who are strong but who use a vocabulary that’s a little violent, or a little intense. That’s some of what we’re going to address.
Justin: Where will that be published when it ‘s done?
Jarboe: Well, we know of one place which is a magazine out of the UK., which is called Wire. Probably someplace in this country, too. I don’t know where she’s going to try yet.
Anji: I’m sure it’s going to be on your website as well.
Jarboe: Yeah, that’s going to be one of the first things. That’s what I want to do: a series of conversations. It’ll be kind of like the Charlie Rose show, you know?
Anji: Will you be attempting to do any live performances of your new material?
Jarboe: Yeah. We’re going to be doing some live performances on the radio in Israel. Several stations have invited me. And in January, there’s a club in New York called Mother, that’s a goth fetish type of club, and I really want to work there, I really want to do a show ’cause I’ve seen things about it that look interesting. So I’m doing that. The back-up band is going to be the group, Backworld, and they are on World Serpent. Joe Vinholtzer is the guy that does the music for Lydia. So I’m going to be performing with them there in January. Probably some more stuff after that. We were invited by the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago to perform there, Mark Spybey and I, to do more of an improvisational sick lounge act thing. That’s an outstanding offer so I hope that that will happen in January, too. I want to do things like that, where I’m performing, but I’m doing it with different musicians, so that every time it’s something fresh.
Anji: Rather than it being with a set band?
Jarboe: That may happen, it’s just a matter of me having the time to stop my life and rehearse and get on the road, you know? I do want to do that. It’s kind of a challenge for me at this point in time, but I want to see what that would be like sans Swans, doing it on my own.
Anji: I think it would be incredible. When I saw Swans perform, I felt like I didn’t get enough of you. There was just the little burst of like, three songs.
Jarboe: (Laughs) Yeah, there was the release in the middle! (Laughs more)
Anji: Yeah, and it was so intense, then it was just over.
Jarboe: Thanks.
Anji: You’re very welcome. And of course, you are invited to come down here any time you like. I’m sure we can help set a few things up for you.
Jarboe: Actually, the San Jose College of Art invited me to come down next semester to be a part of their video program. The art department there would make a video for one of my songs. I would be like an Artist in Residence. So I’m trying to find the time to do that, because it would be fun. And then I’d be out there.
Anji: I’m sure you’d be really great on film. And if you got them to work with any of the images from your album, it would be quite shocking! But then it would probably be censored as well.
Jarboe: That’s the nice thing about having your own website, you can put things on there and have your own videos without worrying.
Anji: You’d probably have to put little disclaimers on it.
Jarboe: That’s true.
Anji: Have you had problems with censorship in the past at all?
Jarboe: Actually, in the early days of MTV, the first “Screw” video; they refused to put that on there because Michael is licking his hand, and it’s just saliva, but they said it looked like something else. So, you know, I don’t know… The mainstream is something that I don’t ever really pay any attention to. I guess Swans was always a type of cult band. You know, you just do your work, and you don’t really worry about that. But things are opening up in the mainstream. I’m really proud of groups like Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails. I think it’s great they’re with the mainstream and kind of pushing the limits of the mainstream.
Anji: Yeah, I can still remember when they had little small-run tapes out, and now they’re big popular sex symbols. But they certainly aren’t like the sex symbols of the past.
Jarboe: (Laughs) No! (Laughs more) No they’re not!
Anji: You know, the other day I was playing “Mississippi” on my radio show and somebody called me up and said, “You are giving me a bad trip. I haven’t had my first cup of coffee and I’m not ready for this!“
Jarboe: (Laughs) I used a lot of different voices on this album and they’re intentionally so. That’s a good one. Compare the voice on “Mississippi” and the opening voices on “Sinner,” which sound like 12 year old girls. I tried to become these different characters. The recovery album, which I’m doing in Israel, is going to be using the full, sensual, so-called beautiful voice again, and that voice has been laid to rest for a while. (Laughs) So it’ll be nice to use that one again. The whole theme of the new work is very much about sensuality and sexuality, which I’ve kind of rediscovered lately, so… (Laughs nervously) That’s why my voice is going to be more feminine and womanly. (Laughs again) Nothing heals like that.
Anji: With the new album, do you already have songs written, or will all the work be done right there?
Jarboe: I’m polishing them now. I’ve been working on them for some time. It’s been kind of weird because I’m doing another project which is a band, called Suicide Pact, that’s John Bergen of Trust Obey, Brett Day of Call, and Christus of the Ignis Fatuus project. What’s weird about it is that we all live in different states. It’s totally, like, Pro-Tools computer. We send each other discs. (Laughs) My vocals are being recorded that way. So I’ve been kind of shifting my mind into that and then pulling it back into my own work, so it’s been kind of crazy around here lately. And that project is kind of commercial, in a way, it’s kinda funk. It’s very bass heavy and groovy. I’m just doing it ’cause it’s a challenge. It’s all about stimulating growth hormone. I think that, as time goes by — I’m forty right now, and I think you have to keep stimulating the growth hormone by keeping on doing things that push you in the right direction. ‘Cause otherwise you’re just kind of dry. So that’s why I’m doing it – to really keep pushing myself.
Anji: Yeah. Staying young.
Jarboe: Exactly.
Anji: Staying with the times and everything.
Jarboe: Exactly, yeah. There’s a few things that help you do that.
Anji: Definitely staying creative, and giving birth to all these different things with all these different people is a life-giving thing.
Jarboe: I think so, yeah.
Anji: Well, I’m glad to see that you’re not stuck in the violent and scary world of the Anhedoniac CD, that you’re moving on to something more fecund with your new album. I was kind of worried about whether or not you were OK when Anhedoniac came out.
Jarboe: One last thing I’ll tell you is that the last song on the album, “Baby, I’m a Killer” — there’s all kinds of clues as to what that’s about. But my own troubles with terrible depression a couple of years ago — that song is writing about what that can lead you to. Some of the background voices in there are mimicking the emergency rescue team which came to my house. That was probably the low point of my life right there. When you get depressed, there’s a sense of helplessness. And it can happen to everybody. What I did to pull back was undergo hypnosis sessions. There’s different ways, without relying on Prozac, to get yourself out of that. It seems like a lot of people, a lot of young people especially, are really badly into depression problems. I don’t know why that is. I seem to have a lot of young friends that cite that a lot, and I really hit that hard myself. So that whole song is about the lengths a person will go to destroy whatever is pulling them apart. It’s pretty autobiographical.
Anji: I appreciate your being so open with me. It’s been a pleasure to meet you and speak with you. We’ve both been fans for a long time and all that.
Jarboe: I’ll send you a copy of the new album when it comes out and we can do it again for that. I’d love to come by there and do a live performance for you also.
Anji: That would be great! I had thought about asking you to do an impromptu acapella performance over the phone.
Jarboe; Oh ho! (Laughs) I’ve done it before! I used to sing ,”Blood on Your Hands” on the radio, over the telephone, all over England. That was when the Skin album came out, in ’86. I did it on the phone from a bed and breakfast in England.
Anji: That sounds kind of cozy, actually. You’re welcome to do a call-in performance from anywhere in the country you like, but if you want to come down, we have a cozy little studio we can set you up in and do it right.
Justin: It sounds a little bit better that way.
Anji: Yeah, it gets kinda distorted over the phone.
Jarboe: OK. Well, I hope all your listeners will visit my web site! For now, you can go to the Swans web site and click on Anhedoniac.
Anji: Actually you have a lot of cool things available from the Swans web site, I’ve noticed. I’m tempted by the tape of you doing the performance in your closet late at night. I’m so fascinated by that!
Jarboe: (Laughs)
Anji: And then there’s the rare things like the single that came with the mud and stuff used in the cover photo.
Jarboe: Well, yeah, I did have “Red,” the CD single of “Red,” that came in a red box with Georgia red clay. That was bought by Steve Severin, of Siouxsie and the Banshees. So that one is gone! I was thrilled when he bought it, he’s a cool guy.
Anji: That’s great. Wow. Well, I guess it’s time to say good-bye. Thanks again and we’ll talk to you again soon.
At the time of publication, Jarboe has already returned from her trip to Tel Aviv, with a mixed result. From a letter to her fans on the Swans web site, she announces, “It is true I brought back a ferocious Middle Eastern virus the likes of which my American flu shot didn’t prevent or faze, and I was quite frankly exhausted from the trip and zombie-like as a result.” This put her in the hospital in and of itself, but she goes on to report that she is also “…facing corrective surgery as my nasal passages are blocked due to internal damage” incurred during a riot which broke out at a club over racial hostilities. Apparently, she is unable to cover the medical costs herself, so they are offering a limited edition benefit sampler cassette via the site to raise funds for her. The material is from her upcoming album, Disburden Disciple, which apparently was only partially recorded during her trip. Jarboe states that the music of Disburden Disciple reflects the merging of her “version of rock meets experimental meets atmospheric meets performance,” and is very eclectic. I can hardly wait to hear it, myself. We’ll be sure to invite her to call in for another in-depth conversation when the full-length album is released, so if you enjoyed this interview, stay tuned for more from this amazing, fascinating and always changing woman, simply named Jarboe.
— Introduction, ending commentary and transcription by Anji Bee